John K. and chronic lateness

[Delaypat]

Then you do it! Damn!
--
"Numerologists dream in Octal"
www.DelayedSleep.com <------FreakOut Rock From Sacramento, CA

The man has been constantly behind schedule or "in trouble" on EVERY
PROJECT HE HAS EVER INITIATED. Is he just a self-centered egomaniac who
does not give a shit about his fans?
This TNN schedule mess is just a cover-up for behind schedule and over
budget problems inherent in the Spumco leadership: John K. For gods
sake, this project has been in the making for almost a WHOLE YEAR. How
long does it take to turn out 6 18 minute episodes (some of which have
re-used old footage or inserted animation-saving live action shots) in a
professional manner??
Is the man tainted with some sort of failure psychosis? He is setting
himself up to be unemployable.
Spumco- the Danes call it incompetence.
X
Remember "Jimmy of the Future"

[Aphelion]

The man has been constantly behind schedule or "in trouble" on EVERY
PROJECT HE HAS EVER INITIATED. Is he just a self-centered egomaniac who
does not give a shit about his fans?

I was wondering the same thing when I read that Fire Dogs 2 (Part 2) was
completed at the eleventh hour.

Aphelion

[Ted]

Stephen Worth wrote:
snip

At MGM, Tex Avery averaged a little more than a half
hour of animation a year. He was constantly chastised by Fred Quimby
for being late and over budget on his shorts. Who the hell cares
whether Tex's cartoons were on time or not today?

snip

Well, did his lateness and budget problems help lead to the end (more or
less) of theatrical short cartoons? If so, then I think many people
today care about that, even if they have some great cartoons as a consolation.

[Stephen Worth]

Post by Ted
Well, did his lateness and budget problems help lead to the end (more or
less) of theatrical short cartoons?

Not in the least. MGM was the most honored studio in the business
during that time. Theatrical shorts were doomed when block booking was
struck down. That had nothing to do with Tex Avery's delivery schedule.

The most dependable studio, delvery-wise, was Walter Lantz. From the
late fifties to 1972, Lantz averaged better than a cartoon a month...
Just about all of them produced in this period were excruciatingly
awful.

See ya
Steve

[Ted]

John's fans understand perfectly... but not everyone who claims to be a
fan is one. Fans care about cartoons, not schedules.

Yes, I feel fans of Spumco cartons are completely aware of what is
involved with Spumco cartoons. They are kind of like Christmas
morning, you have to wait and wait, but once it gets there, what a
wonderful day it is.

snip

And then you open your first of six gifts, and it's... underwear! That's
a size too small! In a style you hate! That's already been worn by
someone! And it's been insufficiently washed! You may get a tie fighter
later on, but underwear is a really lousy way to start off the day.
For many of us, Onwards and Upwards was that underwear.

[Jef]

Post by Ted
And then you open your first of six gifts, and it's... underwear! That's
a size too small! In a style you hate! That's already been worn by
someone! And it's been insufficiently washed! You may get a tie fighter
later on, but underwear is a really lousy way to start off the day.
For many of us, Onwards and Upwards was that underwear.

Ok, while that is one of the best analogies I have ever seen, I didn't
feel that way about Onward and Upward. What I saw was a big huge
middle finger to Nickelodeon. It seemed to me that everything was
done very specifically in that episode. Everything was way over the
edge, very much in your face as if to say "we can do whatever the hell
we want no, so let's do it." I think that is why they aired it before
Ren Seeks Help, to really show that there was going to be huge
differences between the new shows and the old ones. You can argue
that it wasn't pulled off very well, or that episode was sub-par,
whatever, I'm just saying that it looked like that episode had a
purpose on top of entertaining. And yes I did enjoy Onward and
Upward.

Jef

[Warewolf]

Post by Jef
Ok, while that is one of the best analogies I have ever seen, I didn't
feel that way about Onward and Upward. What I saw was a big huge
middle finger to Nickelodeon.

That isn't the case. No one who was involved with R&S in the first run
is still at Nick. The people there have been very helpful to us on the
new show. TNN has also been very supportive, allowing John to do
anything he wants with the show. TNN is the company paying the bills
for the show. If folks slag on TNN, we won't have R&S for long. This
isn't the same sitution as it was with Nick in the old days. Not even
close.

This is actually one of the great things about art -- it's open to as many
interpretations as there are people to view it. Your interpretation may
not agree with those of the regulars here and that's fine :) (Hey, you're
one of the GODS on this series, who am I to judge?) {:^)

The point is, whether or not John _intended_ for the work to contain such
'anti-Nickelodeon' material, it's there and, when you consider what (was
reported to have) happened, it's well deserved. (At least, in my twisted
little mind) ;)

John is working in a new format now. Instead of the short form
cartoons, he is thinking more along the lines of long form variations
on a single theme. If you notice, the shows each have a theme... O&U
was grossouts, RSH was psychodrama, FD2 was dumps, and At the Beach
will be sex. I can understand folks being disappointed when they were
expecting a chocolate malt and they got a T Bone Steak instead. As time
goes by, everyone will see where John is going and there won't be those
sorts of surprises.

We'll see what happens. As I said in a past post, some of it was
disappointing but some of it was good and if John _personally_ thinks that
the show needs improvement it'll happen. (I'm just glad he got his
characters back)

Artists change a lot in ten years.

Indeed they do.
*sheds a sympathetic tear*

The change
probably isn't as perceptible to people who have followed John's work
closely over the past ten years as it is to those who are coming back
to R&S for the first time.

All I can say is that I hope the scenes presented in O&U and RSH provided
some closure to Spumco and their fans. I don't like to belittle anyone for
their failures since I have, at least, some idea of what it takes to make
an animated program (aren't series like 'SPLAT!' wonderful?) but, at the
same time, people who watch television and films and read comic books and
other literature _expect_ to be entertained and you can't really disuade
them from comparing Spumco's past greatness with its current attempts. {:^)

I'll continue to support Spumco's efforts and make my own attempts at
improvements whenever it's chronically feasable. (Hey, *one* of my
gags/scripts has to cough up a laugh)

In the meantime, good luck on Beach Party.

Signed,
Warewolf at Large
who'll be setting this VCR to catch both versions. 8^9~~~~

[Jon Wordsworth]

Post by Warewolf
This is actually one of the great things about art -- it's open to as many
interpretations as there are people to view it.

We are not tuning in to see art, we are tuning in to be entertained by Ren &
Stimpy to make us laugh. If we want art, we go to an art museum.

Post by Warewolf
Your interpretation may
not agree with those of the regulars here and that's fine

What is all this bullshit about art and interpretation?! We are talking
about a cartoon! It used to be a funny cartoon! So is that why it sucks
now, because they are trying to turn it into art that needs to be
interpreted? Go back to making a funny cartoon. I think the people who
make the cartoon need to WATCH some of the old ones and then get an idea about
what it is they are supposed to be doing.

Post by Warewolf

John is working in a new format now. Instead of the short form
cartoons, he is thinking more along the lines of long form variations
on a single theme.

And how the hell does that explanation account for the characters not even
closely being the same as they used to be? Why is it no longer funny, but
boring, stretched out, and aggravating?

Post by Warewolf
If you notice, the shows each have a theme...

Yeah, one was about Ren walking step by step for almost the whole episode.
Forget theme, think funny.
It wasn't broken, why the hell did it have to be fixed?

Post by Warewolf

I can understand folks being disappointed when they were
expecting a chocolate malt and they got a T Bone Steak instead.

Too bad the people who make the cartoon can't understand this. People don't
tune in to CNN to hear church sermons, or watch a comedy to see a horror film.

Post by Warewolf
As time

goes by, everyone will see where John is going and there won't be those
sorts of surprises.

Are you insane? You must be insane. You SERIOUSLY think we are going to
continue watching this crap to see where it is going?! I'm not going to
watch any more of that crap. Plus we saw all there was to see, nothing but
reruns now. I have all the episodes I need on tape from the Nick days.
When I want to see Ren & Stimpy, I will put in the tape. No commercials, No
animated promos for other TNN shows taking up half the fucking screen so I
can't see the program!

TNN SUCKS!!! They SUUUUUUUUUUUUCK!!!

Post by Warewolf
We'll see what happens.

We already did. What are you waiting for?

Post by Warewolf
As I said in a past post, some of it was
disappointing

It sure was.

Post by Warewolf
but some of it was good and if John _personally_ thinks that
the show needs improvement it'll happen.

I don't give a crap what that moron thinks. He has lost all respect from
me. What a loooser.

Post by Warewolf

Artists change a lot in ten years.

Oh well, guess there will never be any more Ren & Stimpy cartoons ever again
then. At least I have all the classics. Now I will wait and see if there
will ever be any more Beavis & Buthead cartoons. Hopefully that guy won't be
a DICK and keep the characters the way they were.

Post by Warewolf
Indeed they do.
*sheds a sympathetic tear*

*vomits up a massive lunch in disgust*

Post by Warewolf

The change
probably isn't as perceptible to people who have followed John's work
closely over the past ten years as it is to those who are coming back
to R&S for the first time.

What work? That bum doesn't even remember how Ren & Stimpy are, and he had
something to do with making the cartoon, didn't he? I ask, because it really
doesn't seem like he knows anything about R&S.

Post by Warewolf
In the meantime, good luck on Beach Party.

What ever the hell that means.

[Trevour]

You just don't get ANYTHING, do you???

Post by Jon Wordsworth

Post by Warewolf
In the meantime, good luck on Beach Party.

What ever the hell that means.

Nope, you definitely don't.

Trevour

[Stephen Worth]

Post by Jon Wordsworth
Are you insane? You must be insane. You SERIOUSLY think we are going to
continue watching this crap to see where it is going?! I'm not going to
watch any more of that crap.

As I said before... "buh-bye!"


See ya
Steve

[William Bowie]

IMHO
I would never compare John K. to ANY of the WBs Termite Terrace crew. John
had his 15min of fame with the original R&S years ago. This new stuff just
doesn't cut it. Thats what is frustrating his fans. We know he can do
better but it looks like we will only get mediocre cartoons that
occasionally have something that might make you smile. I have yet to have
laughed at any of the new cartoons. I just watch in utter disapointment and
flip the channel.

John's fans understand perfectly... but not everyone who claims to be a
fan is one. Fans care about cartoons, not schedules.

I think many of the non-trolling complaints are rooted in impatience.
John K's work, mostly on R&S at Nick, defined the direction and pacing
of much of TV animation from 1992 to today. Without John K's influence,
there would be no Spongebob in its current form (which is often very
good), Fairly Oddparents (which just doesn't make it) and any number of
cartoons currently airing. People who worked under John K who went on
to do various CARTOON CARTOONS and other projects would not have done
them in the same way without John K's influence. In a world of
contemporary television animation production very different from that of
Termite Terrace, John K is roughly equivalent to a Tex Avery or Bob
Clampett, and his talents will someday be touted in reference volumes as
obscure as those that currently trumpet the greatness of animation
directors of the early 20th century.
So, John K's latest work, the 2003 Ren and Stimpy, is subject to extra
scrutiny because of the strengths of his past work, and those in the
audience who recognize the value of that influence want more of it -
without troublesome mis-steps. It may be a lot to ask, but it's to be
expected. Shows like ONWARD AND UPWARD, RANGER SMITH, and many RIPPING
FRIENDS episodes, which did not exhibit the expected strengths of John K
direction, are atacked with an innapropriate fervor.
All the attention from animators and animation fans is a compliment,
really. People are spending valuable time to comment. The general
public gives less than a shit about animation specifics, but people who
know at least a little about the work are paying attention.
____________________
www.frankpanucci.com

[Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D. P.A.]

Post by William Bowie
IMHO
I would never compare John K. to ANY of the WBs Termite Terrace crew. John
had his 15min of fame with the original R&S years ago. This new stuff just
doesn't cut it. Thats what is frustrating his fans. We know he can do
better but it looks like we will only get mediocre cartoons that
occasionally have something that might make you smile. I have yet to have
laughed at any of the new cartoons. I just watch in utter disapointment and
flip the channel.

You missed "Ren Seeks Help."

Boundary-of-good-taste-shattering humor aside, the animation quality was
equal to Disney's best work, *including* Snow White.

[William Bowie]

I saw it..still not impressed.

Post by Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D. P.A.

Post by William Bowie
IMHO
I would never compare John K. to ANY of the WBs Termite Terrace crew.

John

Post by Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D. P.A.

Post by William Bowie
had his 15min of fame with the original R&S years ago. This new stuff just
doesn't cut it. Thats what is frustrating his fans. We know he can do
better but it looks like we will only get mediocre cartoons that
occasionally have something that might make you smile. I have yet to have
laughed at any of the new cartoons. I just watch in utter disapointment and
flip the channel.

You missed "Ren Seeks Help."
Boundary-of-good-taste-shattering humor aside, the animation quality was
equal to Disney's best work, *including* Snow White.

[Jon Wordsworth]

Post by William Bowie
I saw it..still not impressed.

Post by Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D. P.A.
You missed "Ren Seeks Help."

I was not impressed either. That was the one I believe where you see Ren
taking up (it seems) half the cartoon just walking down the street step by step
by step by step by step and then in the building and then step step step down
the hall and eventually he finally gets to the shrink's office. I wanted to
tear my hair out waiting for the cartoon to get on with some sort of plot or
dialog or something! What CRAP!

[Trevour]

Post by Jon Wordsworth

Post by William Bowie
I saw it..still not impressed.

Post by Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D. P.A.
You missed "Ren Seeks Help."

I was not impressed either. That was the one I believe where you see Ren
taking up (it seems) half the cartoon just walking down the street step by step
by step by step by step and then in the building and then step step step down
the hall and eventually he finally gets to the shrink's office. I wanted to
tear my hair out waiting for the cartoon to get on with some sort of plot or
dialog or something! What CRAP!

You have GOT to be kidding me. Did you even pay any attention to what was
going on during this walking sequence?!?

Trevour

[Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D. P.A.]

Post by Jon Wordsworth

Post by William Bowie
I saw it..still not impressed.

Post by Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D. P.A.
You missed "Ren Seeks Help."

I was not impressed either. That was the one I believe where you see Ren
taking up (it seems) half the cartoon just walking down the street step by step
by step by step by step and then in the building and then step step step down
the hall and eventually he finally gets to the shrink's office. I wanted to
tear my hair out waiting for the cartoon to get on with some sort of plot or
dialog or something! What CRAP!

He's mastered the art of torturing his audience. Call it crap if you
will. Call it a mountain of crap. The rest of us call it genius.

[William Bowie]

Post by Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D. P.A.
He's mastered the art of torturing his audience. Call it crap if you
will. Call it a mountain of crap. The rest of us call it genius.

Ok ... well torturing the audience won't pay the bills for long. I'm not
saying its crap..just doesn't seem like good business sense. and don't give
me that " its art genuis " stuff either...ITS A FREAKIN CARTOON for petes
sake!. I watch it to be entertained. If John K wants to bring R&S back for
real he will have to compromise at some point in order to keep the show on
the air. But we saw how well JK deals with compromise at Nick.

[Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D. P.A.]

Post by William Bowie

Post by Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D. P.A.
He's mastered the art of torturing his audience. Call it crap if you
will. Call it a mountain of crap. The rest of us call it genius.

Ok ... well torturing the audience won't pay the bills for long. I'm not
saying its crap..just doesn't seem like good business sense. and don't give
me that " its art genuis " stuff either...ITS A FREAKIN CARTOON for petes
sake!.

"Genius" and "cartoon" aren't mutually exclusive; recall the truly great
early '70s cartoon, "Tomfoolery." Art can be (and by the time it's
regurgitated and served up to you by corporate media, usually is)
pretentious.

Post by William Bowie
I watch it to be entertained.

I watch it to laugh until it hurts, so I don't have to drink.

Post by William Bowie
If John K wants to bring R&S back for
real he will have to compromise at some point in order to keep the show on
the air. But we saw how well JK deals with compromise at Nick.

You misspelled "censorship" and omitted "dictatorial."

[William Bowie]

How about just saying they had a "difference of opinion" on the shows
direction.

:-P

Post by Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D. P.A.

Post by William Bowie

Post by Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D. P.A.
He's mastered the art of torturing his audience. Call it crap if you
will. Call it a mountain of crap. The rest of us call it genius.

Ok ... well torturing the audience won't pay the bills for long. I'm not
saying its crap..just doesn't seem like good business sense. and don't give
me that " its art genuis " stuff either...ITS A FREAKIN CARTOON for petes
sake!.

"Genius" and "cartoon" aren't mutually exclusive; recall the truly great
early '70s cartoon, "Tomfoolery." Art can be (and by the time it's
regurgitated and served up to you by corporate media, usually is)
pretentious.

Post by William Bowie
I watch it to be entertained.

I watch it to laugh until it hurts, so I don't have to drink.

Post by William Bowie
If John K wants to bring R&S back for
real he will have to compromise at some point in order to keep the show on
the air. But we saw how well JK deals with compromise at Nick.

You misspelled "censorship" and omitted "dictatorial."

[Stephen Worth]

Post by William Bowie
If John K wants to bring R&S back for
real he will have to compromise at some point in order to keep the show on
the air.

Let's all let out a hearty cheer for compromise! Yay!

See ya
Steve

[R. Westermeyer]

The man has been constantly behind schedule or "in trouble" on EVERY
PROJECT HE HAS EVER INITIATED.

Television is full of "prompt cartoons". You might want to watch those
and let me know when they start giving out awards for "most on time and
under budget". At MGM, Tex Avery averaged a little more than a half
hour of animation a year. He was constantly chastised by Fred Quimby
for being late and over budget on his shorts. Who the hell cares
whether Tex's cartoons were on time or not today?
Spumco cartoons are more elaborate and production intensive than any
other cartoons currently being made for television. There are more
incredible drawings in one scene of a John K cartoon than in the entire
yearly output of other studios. You may not get 65 half hours per
season from John K, but the handful of episodes you do get will
frequently be good enough to watch over and over again for years to
come.

Is he just a self-centered egomaniac who does not give a shit about his fans?

John's fans understand perfectly... but not everyone who claims to be a
fan is one. Fans care about cartoons, not schedules.

So...fans are slacker losers?

Don't drag me into your personal hell, fella.

See ya
Steve

*****
Amateurs, dilettantes, hacks, cowboys, clones
The streets groan with little Caesars,
Napoleons and cunts
With their building blocks and their tiny
plastic phones
Counting on their fingers, with crumbs
down their fronts
-Nick Cave

[Charlemange]

The man has been constantly behind schedule or "in trouble" on EVERY
PROJECT HE HAS EVER INITIATED. Is he just a self-centered egomaniac who
does not give a shit about his fans?

Are you in the know or just a pussy whiner? It costs alot of $ and
takes alot of time to make these toons. The art quality in the R&S
toons are above par. Also, the episodes started in the summertime and
people may have missed them. I for one haven't seen Onward and Upward
yet but look forward to seeing it tonite.

[-=Gaylord=-]

And the thought that John K hates his fans is completely insane!

Completely. Let me tell you why. One of my forum members was making his way
to Ottawa, on the day John was due to fly out to LA. They asked if it was
alright to pop by, and he was told that John would try to make it before he
had to leave. They arrive at John's dads house, who takes them to Spumco HQ.
John personally gives his whole family a tour. They got a bunch of goodies,
personalised sketches, loads of photo ops, and even let them see a rough
copy of Naked Beach Frenzy. John even re-enacts an upcoming Powdered Toast
Man short. Here is the link to his experience:
http://bb.bbboy.net/motlos-viewthread?forum=7&thread=8

Come on now, how many studios do you know of, animation, movie or otherwise,
would let someone do that? This happened last week

Also John donated 3 personalised signed sketches to my forum for the year
anniversary, which made 3 fans really happy. Back in September, John shared
the rough storyline of 'Stimpy's Pregnant' with me, and he didn't know too
much about me then.

If he hates his fans he has a real funny way of showing it.

Randi Mueck
http://bb.bboy.net/motlos

The man has been constantly behind schedule or "in trouble" on EVERY
PROJECT HE HAS EVER INITIATED. Is he just a self-centered egomaniac who
does not give a shit about his fans?

Are you in the know or just a pussy whiner? It costs alot of $ and
takes alot of time to make these toons. The art quality in the R&S
toons are above par. Also, the episodes started in the summertime and
people may have missed them. I for one haven't seen Onward and Upward
yet but look forward to seeing it tonite.